MyDD :: Andy Sullivan says he likes integrity in a candidate

Andy Sullivan says he likes integrity in a candidate

by blackflag, Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 07:51:32 AM EST

i had stopped visiting sullivans site some time back, i found the daily two feet of sewage on the clintons just uncomfortable to view, and smell.

since hillary endorsed obama, since they had their unity rally yesterday, i thought, why not check it out

as to any post on the rally, nada, i guess that makes sense, sullivan perhaps is just biting his tongue and letting sleeping dogs lie.

there was a post about politics however in which sullivan declared he was not looking for a saint in a leader, this in a comment about right wing criticism of obama

but, what caught my attention was the statement that "Obama is an inspiring figure and remains a bridge to a post-boomer discourse. But he is impressive precisely because he is neither a pure Adlai Stevenson nor a protean Bill Clinton. He's more like Jack Kennedy: cunning, ruthless, capable of political positioning as much as greatness. I don't want politicians to be saints. I just don't want them to be devoid of integrity either. Obama strikes me as better, much better, than most".

ok, i am confused, he does not want a saint, but he wants one with some integrity....how much, he does not say, but i have gotten the clear idea that he has little admiration for bill or hillary clintons integrity...ok, free country, but why toss in old cunning, ruthless jfk...is he the not saint but with integrity we need to follow as a model?

the fact that jfk regularly, repeat, regularly used the service of many, many prostitutes, once had an affair while a senator with a woman from another country, one with dubious relationships, jfk used to have swimming parties in the white house while jackie was out, the president swimming nude with a couple of young babes, the secret service on the lookout

huh? bill clinton is a horrid man for a freaking blow job and jfk is the man of integrity?

what freaking universe is this guy from....oh, well, if you detest someone long enough, you can come to think anything of them, and excuse vile behaviour as just being one of the elite boys...they have a pass, rubes from arkansas, well, not so much

Tags: andy sullivan, obama, clinton, jfk, integrity (all tags)

Permalink :: 37 Comments :: Post a Comment

You're reading too much into it (2.00 / 1)

he is neither a pure Adlai Stevenson nor a protean Bill Clinton.

I think his point was a "puritan" like Adlai (two failed Presidential bids) Stevenson is not what we need for a nominee from a political standpoint.

But Bill Clinton epitomizes the cameleon-like "protean" nature required for effective politics.

He's saying he feels Barack Obama is the fine line between the two. I don't think he was in any way, shape or form referencing Bill Clinton's blow job.

Gobama!

by USArmyParatrooper on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:30:29 AM EST

Re: You're reading too much into it (2.00 / 4)

with all due respect, you would have to overlook the last two years of incessant ranting about the slimy clintons, bills horrid infidelity, hillarys horrid toleration of same, blsh blah

you can only hold your well meaning and nuanced opinion if you ignore history and the written record

by blackflag on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:44:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're reading too much into it (none / 0)

Honestly, I don't even know who this guy is. So in that context perhaps you're right. But looking at that one statement, that's how I read it.

Gobama!

by USArmyParatrooper on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:50:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're reading too much into it (none / 0)

As the Paratrooper says. There was nothing about blow jobs, hookers, or sex of any kind in that comment. The piece quoted is a rebuttal to a rather slimy Krauthammer column (er, is there any other kind?) and is about Obama's political skills.

Some people just want to see sex everywhere.

by candidate D on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:59:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're reading too much into it (2.00 / 0)

The blow job has nothing to do with the development of Sully dislike of Bill.

It was rooted the very issue he mentions: his protean nature.

He felt Clinton betrayed gays when politically advantageous and came to see all of His actions through a frame of power seeking w/o principle.

He believe that Bill carries "end justifies the means" to a dangerous extreme: Bill believes he is good thus it is ok for him to not be good in every case. because him having power ultimately achieves more good.

It was an interesting evolution. He endorsed Clinton against Bush Sr (he was editor of National Review then) but came to be rabid in his dislike

John McCain: Cheney with a temper

by wrb on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:36:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're reading too much into it (none / 0)

Oops- brain cramp.

I meant to write "The New Republic" not "National Review"

John McCain: Cheney with a temper

by wrb on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 02:19:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sully is disgusting. (2.00 / 9)

Why anyone with any intelligence at all would give him the time of day is beyond me.

He got where he is by being the rights 'token queer', because he was ultra conservative in his views and a cheerleader for anything Bush wanted to do. His 'uber buddy' Huffington got where she is by being the right's talking head during the Clinton years spewing venom about the Clintons. Both of them hate the Clintons, but without them and the opportunities they gave them, neither of them would be more than a dullard on the street.

Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?

by emsprater on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:30:35 AM EST

Re: Sully is disgusting. (2.00 / 7)

yes, while he was somewhat indirect here, his ommission of any comment about hillary going all out for obama in her speech...just no comment, his view of the clintons morality is his raison d'etre, like paula jones and some of the loonier crowd, dan burton shooting melons to simulate vince fosters head

the haters cannot stop, and they accuse us old clinton types as haters and racists, well, knock yourselve out boys, we are not going down that road with you, lets take the higher road

by blackflag on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:42:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Applauding you for this (2.00 / 6)

How anyone can look at Sullivan or Arianna as anything but greedy opportunists is beyond comprehension. But then I suspect many of their admirers were like them: Reagan democrats or Clinton hating wingnuts trying to assuage their own guilt: they hated Bill and Hillary for what? He cheated, she let him, he got elected and brought a good economy for people other than just the rich? Yet they loved Reagan despite the years his administration trained militants to do torture; they loved the decades of greed.

Sullivan and Arianna are liars and thieves, selfish plutocrats who are making money off their Clinton hate.

by Jjc2008 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:01:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Forget Andrew Sullivan (2.00 / 2)

I used to read Andrew Sullivan too. Sometimes he was interesting, but he really went off the deep end about Hillary.

Since the end of the primary season, I've gone back to some sites, like TPM. But AS is one I'll never return to. He isn't interesting enough to justify wading through the BS.

by dbrown04 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:23:08 AM EST

UHG (1.75 / 4)

Andrew Sullivan is THE WORST. Intellectually disingenuous.
He, like Olbermann, are so engulfed in themselves, that they cannot see anything beyond their own egos. Sullivan and Olbermann railed so intensely for Obama in the primaries that they will NEVER be able to admit that he isn't everything they promised he would be. It's like the abused spouse syndrome. "He does it because he loves me".
We have no real media anymore- just pundits with the same neurosis as everyone else. It's pretty scary.

by easyE on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:49:07 AM EST

Re: Andy Sullivan says he likes integrity in a can (2.00 / 1)

I still read Sullivan, just not as much as I once did. He's so inconsistent that it's difficult to take him seriously on any issue, other than LGBT ones. He clearly suffers from Clinton-derangement syndrome. I sent him an email about it once. I think that's the only email I ever sent him. He considered adding the ability to leave comments on his site and then thought better of it. Probably afraid he'd get buried by all the angry emails he would get about his Clinton hatred. He seems to have two main problems. He's has an uncontrollable hatred of all things Clinton and he has no idea of where he falls on the political spectrum. He mistakenly thinks he's a conservative, because he shares a few of their values. If he's a conservative, he's a Joe Biden one. I will admit that he's a pretty good writer and I enjoy his appearances on Bill Maher.

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson

by MS01 Indie on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 11:52:16 AM EST

Re: Andy Sullivan says he likes integrity in a can (none / 0)

He's conservative, he just correctly believes that our current right-wingers aren't.

He's and Oakshot conservative, suspicious of hubris in government.

Pro-civil liberties, pro-civil rights, anti-big government, anti-Rovian dishonesty.

John McCain: Cheney with a temper

by wrb on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:47:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says he likes integrity in a can (2.00 / 2)

Sullivan is a European or English conservative. That's closer to being a moderate Democrat than it is to being a GOP conservative.

Conservatism in the US can only be judged on its merits, not on its supposed principles. The last 28 years have given us a clear picture of what stands for conservatism in the US. The Reagan deficits were the beginning. Conservatism stands for discrimination, corporate welfare, divisiveness, and anti-middle class policies. It calls for full support of the MIC, rape of natural resources with a mind-set from the 19th century, and a survival-of-the-fittest society that favors the rich. It stands for an "I've got mine, screw you" attitude. The funny thing is that the conservatives in America have co-opted the mantle of being the most moral party when, in reality, their policies are the most un-Christian of any group in this country.

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson

by MS01 Indie on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 01:02:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says he likes integrity in a can (2.00 / 2)

I think we should stop using the word "conservative" to describe the American right. "Conservative" the word brings positive connotations they don't deserve.

They aren't conservative. They are radical authoritarian plutocrats and their enablers.

John McCain: Cheney with a temper

by wrb on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 01:06:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says he likes integrity in a can (none / 0)

Technically true, but they've claimed the mantle of American conservatism. As long as they are viewed by the general public as being the conservative party then they represent conservatism. Someday, conservative will be viewed as a negative label, just as the right did with liberal. At least liberals had the term progressive to adopt in place of liberal. I wonder what conservatives will come to call themselves when that day arrives? BTW, progressive is not the same as liberal, but most people think it is, so that's how it's viewed by the general public.

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson

by MS01 Indie on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 01:20:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says he likes integrity in a can (none / 0)

I don't thinks so. "Conservative" the non-political word has too many good association: prudence, caution, thrift, conservation etc.

"Liberal" was always more troublesome: careless, wasteful, spendthrift etc.

John McCain: Cheney with a temper

by wrb on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 01:29:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says he likes integrity in a can (2.00 / 1)

Like most things, I guess it all depends on your point of view. I see it differently. Conservative to mean means close-minded, fearful of change, self-centered, and lacking in imagination. Liberal means open, caring, non-discriminatory, charitable, etc...

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson

by MS01 Indie on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 01:38:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says he likes integrity in a can (none / 0)

Words don't always have a clear distinction between meaning and emotional connotation, but let's not so utterly confuse the two as you have been doing.

In their basic meanings Reactionary, Conservative, Progressive all concern the corresponding attitudes towards societal advancement -- whether you want to cause the regression of the status quo to that of a previous era, to maintain it as is, or to progress it to something better.

The Republican party, arguing for the abolition of Habeas Corpus, the legitimization of torture, and the overthrowing of Roe vs Wade are the reactionary party.

The Democrat party is half conservative and half progressive.

Liberal vs Authoritarian also ought have meanings (regardless of emotional connotation) regarding your position in regards to human liberty vs the power of governmental authority.

by Aris Katsaris2 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 01:51:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says he likes integrity in a can (2.00 / 1)

Words mean what the listener or reader believes they mean. I will agree with you that today's GOP could more accurately be called the reactionary party, but in reality they are believed to be the conservative party by the majority of people in this country. As such, their actions serve to give meaning to the label of conservative.

I don't necessarily agree that the split between conservatives in the "Democrat" [sic] party is 50-50. Far from it.

I agree with you that liberal and authoritarian ought to have opposite meanings. Unfortunately, the Right has twisted the meaning of liberal to imply that it is someone who wants the government to have power over you. Until the true definition of liberal manages to be restored in the public mind it will have a negative connotation.

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson

by MS01 Indie on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 03:58:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says he likes integrity in a can (2.00 / 1)

"Until the true definition of liberal manages to be restored in the public mind it will have a negative connotation."

The negative connotations that the Right has tried to create are with liberals themselves not just with the word "liberal". Republicans don't care if it's "liberals" or "progressives" that try to make same-sex marriage legal, or who try to abolish torture.

That's why it's a fool's game and downright self-destructive to abandon whichever label the Republicans attacks. If people keep treating liberalism like it's a bad thing, then they merely end up arguing that the Republicans are right.

"I'm not a liberal, I'm a progressive" the whiny coward shall plead -- at which point he boosts and supports and endorses every single insult that the Republicans have heaped on liberals. His whole belief system thrown under the bus, merely to avoid the "connotation"

by Aris Katsaris2 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 07:31:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says he likes integrity in a can (none / 0)

Very good point.

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson

by MS01 Indie on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 07:38:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says he likes integrity in a can (none / 0)

"At least liberals had the term progressive to adopt in place of liberal. "

And of course "liberal" was itself the name these people adopted instead of "socialdemocrat".

Because the American Left doesn't bother to defend its actual principles, they keep being forced to abandon the name of those who do defend them. No wonder liberals in America keep losing battle after battle, with their strategy being how to throw THEMSELVES under the bus.

Other than that: The Republican party is a reactionary party. The Democrat party is balancing between its conservative ("centrist") wing and its occasionally slightly progressive one.

And "liberal" should always be the opposite of "authoritarian". Right now it happens that the American left are the liberals, and the right-wing are the authoritarians. But that's merely incidental.

In other countries the situation is different and the right-wing are liberals, while the leftists are authoritarians (e.g. Chavez in Venezuela).

by Aris Katsaris2 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 01:44:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says he likes integrity in a can (none / 0)

Authoritarians are found on both Right and Left. The most extreme members of the Left, the marxists and their like, believe in a strong, coercive government. That's one of the Right's arguments - beware the nanny state. The far Right, as embodied by the neo-cons, favors a powerful unitarian executive. They would be well-pleased with a monarchical government. The ones on the Right have been with us since the country was born.

This country has been torn between two camps ever since its founding. On one hand you have Jeffersonian democrats, like myself, and on the other you have Hamiltonian federalists. Which side do you fall on?

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson

by MS01 Indie on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 01:58:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Excellent explanation (2.00 / 1)

Even in the 60s when I was young and learning, it was evident to me that the extremists on the left had a history of going so far as to become "right" in my mind. For me, history has always shown that extremism (on either side) often ends on absolutism.

It frustrates many leftists I know that they must compromise and they become quite condescending about it...they did it to Hillary (and Bill) and they will do the same to Barrack. In fact they have already started.

In reality, democracy is about compromise. And liberals should be the ones better at it. A truly open minded person understands that one cannot force ideals and beliefs, no matter how high minded. One must educate, reform, teach, and show by example. Yes it is slower but in the end, it is the only way. Becoming what we try to overcome is never the answer.

by Jjc2008 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 03:06:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says he likes integrity in a can (1.00 / 4)

MS Indie----

God that is the most moronic explanation of this countries political landscape I have ever heard. And to think they are going to allow you to vote for your 1st time.

Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!

by aliveandkickin on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 03:26:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says he likes integrity in a can (none / 0)

He he! You are sooooo cute, alive. Here's a smile for you. :-)

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson

by MS01 Indie on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 03:36:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says (1.75 / 4)

I am a big fan of Andrew Sullivan. He takes the modern conservative movement to task for all the idiotic things they've done of late. The man was a Clinton supporter for several years, dammit.

In Sullivan's eyes the Clintons earned his distrust and disgust. While I do not agree with his view of them, I can understand why he feels as he does and even respect that viewpoint (I'm capable of respecting all manner of viewpoints I don't share).

Sullivan writes well and, his disgust with the Clintons aside, is fairly intellectually honest.

Flame away!

by Reaper0Bot0 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:51:36 PM EST

Re: Andy Sullivan says (none / 0)

He's about the best on the issues I most care about: erosion of the constitution, corruption of the DOJ torture etc.

John McCain: Cheney with a temper

by wrb on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 12:55:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I respectfully disagree..... (2.00 / 3)

Sullivan did not disagree with the Clintons..he blamed them. Having an authoritarian mind set, he does not get the art of compromise. Bill was not a perfect president. He screwed up on some things...and on some things he had to compromise. Hillary went in as an idealist and like many other idealists could not understand how others could not see her way when it came to healthcare. She learned a hard lesson. She has been condemned by the likes of Sullivan for not being stronger, smarter, getting more done.
But instead of criticizing he demonizes; instead of disagreement with how she tried (and failed) he makes her out to be some kind of an evil being who all along wanted to betray gay people; betray the poor; betray those who wanted change.

Obama people are going to learn reality. Some already are......
democracy can never be authoritarian. So many of us KNOW FISA is a mistake but a lot of people do not and they have to be taught, not beat into submission.
We have a society where people pinch pennies when it comes to education; where infotainment is fulfilling the "tv is a vast wasteland" prediction of the 1950's.
(Some) People would say "school taxes are too high; education is too expensive." I used to say "If you think education is expensive, you ought to try ignorance." Well we have been trying ignorance since the 1980 election of Reagan. FINALLY people are now coming to terms with how very expensive that ignorance has been for all of us.

by Jjc2008 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 03:16:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says (2.00 / 1)

Hey Lakrosse, care to explain to me how stating I like Andrew Sullivan is a troll?

Can you give me anything resembling a rational reason for that?

You TR'ed my taste in bloggers. Criminy.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:26:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says (none / 0)

Boy I hope not the troll moniker to get. As a Catholic his was one of the first blogs I started reading. It is eclectic. I think he stated the the HRC thing may have just been the audio response to her voice that hit the nails on chalkboard frequency in the brain. I am sure that it also had to be DADT betrayal.

I like being surprised by what he covers. I live in the part of the world with Mr. Buckles the last WWI veteran so Sully surprised me with one of the first pictures after Frank's last birthday. And then there were long discussions on atheism.

I think he looks back to JFK's own definitions of liberal, and likes the strong sharp elbows that Obama can display. He grew up on Thatcher and went to school with Arriana I think. May have even been her dinner date at some function.

He is definitely disgusted with the Republican brand and its marriage to the worst of the intolerant evangelicals. Like Randi Rhodes, the kitchen sink part of the campaign when it was mathematically impossible for HRC to win drove him nuts.

Right now, since he is not a citizen, Jesse Helms is touching him from the grave. He married his life partner in MA recently, but may have to leave the country if the law is not changed due to his HIV status.

by ttmiskovsky on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 07:56:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says (none / 0)

I totally disagree with your analysis of Sully, but that shouldn't earn you a TR.

I am sad to hear that any one with the intelligence you always show actually reads his 'work'.

Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?

by emsprater on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 07:42:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says (none / 0)

Fair enough.

How many people who were loud cheerleaders for the war have come to their senses? He earned a lot of my respect for that.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 11:49:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Andy Sullivan says (2.00 / 1)

well, is he honest about jfk's depravities in coming to his conclusion jfk was cunning, all that great stuff great people do

honest enough to know jfk did damn little, really, his actual accomplishments were few, he never lived out his first term

his excesses are acceptable, the horrible, horrible deprecations of the clintons is bad to the bone, but jfk gets the good housekeeping award for integrity

bullshit

by blackflag on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:39:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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